Joker Roundtable
10 questions, 6 opinions
Joker is probably the most talked about film of the year, sparking a whole range of opinions and wider discussions. In this first collaboration piece, myself and five other reviewers offer our own opinions and sink our teeth into the biggest talking points about this movie. This piece’s roundtable is made up of: predictflicks, the_unpopular_film_critic, reggiesroomblog, thecinemagallery & the_celluloid_closet.
Is Joker the film of the year (so far)?
@the_unpopular_film_critic: So far, Joker is my 2nd favorite movie of the year. My absolute favorite is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, mostly because I’m a huge Tarantino fan.
@predictflicks: Personal opinion: no. I think it has to be Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or Avengers:Endgame. Based on opening weekend box office data (*silently takes moment to thank Boxoffice Mojo*), the BIGGEST movies of the year money-wise were Avengers: Endgame ($357 mil), The Lion King ($192 mil), Captain Marvel ($153 mil), Toy Story 4 ($121 mil), and then Joker comes in at the 5-spot with $96 mil. So, it’s in the top 5, that’s a thing! Now how about critically? The most reliably positively reviewed movies of 2019 (so far) are: Avengers: Endgame (94%, 486 reviews; Average Rating = 8.3), Us (93%, 493 reviews; Average Rating: 7.95), and Toy Story 4 (97%, 402 reviews; Average Rating: 8.39). By comparison critics reviewed Joker 466 times, with 68% of those being “Fresh” and critics rated it 7.26/10 on average. So not bad, but not the film of the year statistically. Seems like Avengers: Endgame wins that one (dark horse candidate Toy Story 4).
@reggiesroomblog:To be honest, it’s definitely in the conversation. There have been lots of great films this year but none that has captured the pop culture zeitgeist like “Joker”has. It has created the most buzz, conversation, controversy, etc
@the_celluloid_closet: “Joker” certainly exceeded my expectation and perspective of what a comic book movie could be. It has transcended its genre to become and much a more irreverent and human story. Even as a comic book origin film it is above and beyond your standard fare and tells an extremely compelling and engaging story, that has loaded itself with some of the most iconic imagery in cinematic history! Yes, Joker is the movie of the year!
@thecinemagallery: No it is very close, but Avengers: Endgame to me is still the best movie of the year. Joker is my #2 film this year.
@aklo_movies: So far – yes. No movie that’s come out up to this point in the year has been better than Joker. It’s so bizzare and odd, and pushed the boat out in a way that no other film did this year. It’s also amongst the few releases of 2019 that I’ve gone back for multiple viewings and didn’t see my enjoyment of the film diminish at all. Endgame had its moments, but start to finish, I enjoyed Joker much more
Will Joaquin Phoenix win an Oscar? Should he?
@thecinemagallery: I’m not sure if Joaquin will win the award because there’s still plenty of movies/performances to see. That being said he absolutely should win the award.
@the_celluloid_closet: Yes! Phoenix doesn’t just act he transforms! His commitment to the performance and the emotion put in to making Arthur Fleck more than a villain, he is a man on the verge of a nervous breakdown and what you witness is a powerhouse performance full of development, full of masterful nuances, and a completely unique portrayal unlike anything seen on film. He should Win the Oscar. But will the Academy give him the Oscar?
@aklo_movies: Every now and then, there comes an acting performance that forces itself upon the history of cinema that just can’t be ignored and has to be recognised for its greatness. Phoenix’s portrayal of Arthur Fleck/Joker is one of those. Not since Daniel Day Lewis’ Lincoln (2012) has an actor’s performance carried such importance to a movie’s success or failure. After DDL’s Lincoln, I think Heath’s Joker is the next best performance we’ve gotten in the last 15 years. Both actors received Oscars for their roles and it was unquestioned. I think Phoenix will and should join their company. I honestly don’t think Joaquin even cares if he wins, but I can see there being overwhelming support for him from the masses come Oscar time.
@reggiesroomblog: It’s a guarantee that he will be nominated. That’s a foregone conclusion, in my opinion. Should he be nominated. YES! Should he win? As of right now, he is the frontrunner to me. There are still other performances I have to see but he is leading the pack.
@predictflicks: I think he’ll get Oscar attention, I even think he might win. However, I think he’s more Golden Globe material this year. He’ll get the popular controversial pick for that, and be nominated for the Oscars and lose to someone from a movie that has yet to come out yet. Should he? Now that’s a question. The audience may think so, but you have to remember who generally votes for those awards: **The Academy**. “Academy membership is limited to film artists working in the production of theatrically-released motion pictures” (Academy Membership article from Oscars.org; 2019). You know who the most interesting critics are of movies? It’s actors, directors, writers, and everyone else qualified to be in it. Critics made an interesting point on Joaquin’s acting that I think will be mirrored by many of the actors and directors and writers in Hollywood: That Joaquin was acting the most, not the best. This was my favorite quote summarizing that “Phoenix is acting so hard you can feel the desperation throbbing in his veins” (Stephanie Zacharek, TIME; Aug 2019).
@the_unpopular_film_critic: I honestly think that with all the controversy going on about this movie, it’ll most likely hurt this movie’s chances of winning any Oscars. Phoenix definitely deserves it, but I don’t know if he’ll win it.
Is this the best comic book movie of all time?
@predictflicks: Nope. I’m gonna go ahead and quote my own quick research and say it’s Avengers: Endgame. According to Rotten Tomatoes at least at the time of writing this it’s actually Black Panther, which I’m happy about. Also, do you know how many comic book movies there actually are?!!?!? You have to include things like V for Vendetta, Oldboy, Men in Black, Kingsman. Good luck determining what even should count in that category vs. not, but my answer is still no, because stats
@thecinemagallery: No, it is my #2 comic book movie of all time only behind Avengers: Endgame but surpassing my #3 comic book movie in Avengers: Infinity War, my #4 comic book movie in Logan, my #5 is Captain America: Civil War
@reggiesroomblog: The best? I don’t know. I hate calling things the best because it is not a conventional comic book film. I do still give a slight edge to “The Dark Knight” as the best. But “Joker” is not far behind.
@the_unpopular_film_critic: Yeah. I honestly do. Nuff said.
@aklo_movies: I think Joker finds itself in the rare company of The Dark Knight and Logan that were films that transcended the comic book genre. They aren’t just great comic book movies, they’re just great movies full stop. TDK was such a cultural phenomenon and changed how we view superheroes and comic book movies forever. Even though the third act falls away a bit with the Two Face character, I’d still get it the nod over Joker. But Joker would be the undisputed runner up.
@the_celluloid_closet: No, “Joker” transcends its comic origins and has created its own unique interpretation of that genre. Despite its origins, Joker is distinctly not a comic book movie, in style, substance and delivery. Because it does not follow the traditional style this is more of physiological and physiological study of the human condition, making it one of the greatest movies of all time!
Do we want a Joker sequel?
@reggiesroomblog: We? Sure. Me? Not really. I love ambiguous endings. Let my imagination take it to where I want it to go. But money talks and BS walks. WB has to be thinking about a sequel at this point.
@predictflicks: I would have originally said yes had Todd Phillips and everyone surrounding it not said “It’s a standalone movie” and essentially saying *we’re not doing this for the money* and then IMMEDIATELY change that once they crack the top 5 opening weekends in 2019. Then Todd Phillips even cleverly skirted the problem that people didn’t think Joker fit THE Joker in terms of a supervillain and said *well he may have inspired the real Joker* (much like what the FOX series Gotham did). Seems like that was quick thinking to set up a sequel when it was supposed to be a standalone movie. Sure, go for it.
@the_unpopular_film_critic: Honestly, I don’t really want a sequel to Joker. I do want more CBMs like this, but let Joker be its own thing.
@the_celluloid_closet: “Joker” feels very much like the beginning of a greater story …. A story that we all know to well. Unless a “Joker” sequel can further explore the mind of Arthur Fleck, his continued disillusionment and psychosis and further breakdown, by still making him a sympathetic character then I don’t think a sequel is truly required! I’m not saying I would rule it out, but it would need to remain in the psychological drama genre for me to have any true interest in the character in this particular incarnation and avoid involving the story of Batman as much as possible! They have developed this character strongly enough to stand on his own without his greatest adversary joining the mix.
@thecinemagallery: The fanboy in me wants to see a sequel, but my head/heart are both saying no. This was a great one-shot standalone story.
@aklo_movies: No! Sometimes things are best left alone. A one and done is completely fine, let’s not get greedy here. We’re getting mixed messages from WB/DC/Todd Phillips/Joaquin Phoenix about whether they’ll be coming back for another part. But I’d much rather see Phoenix continue his trend of being selective with the roles he takes, as it’d be much more interesting seeing him take another weird part in a different film.
Should Marvel/Disney be concerned?
@thecinemagallery: Marvel & Disney have absolutely nothing to worry about. If anything they are happy. The more good comic book movies that come out that aren’t from the MCU is a win for everybody who makes a comic book movie (unless you make Hellboy. Yikes!)
@reggiesroomblog: Not at all. Marvel/Disney know what they do works for them. Although I love the DCEU, it has struggled and I feel that WB has finally found what THEY excel at…Unconventional comic book movies
@the_celluloid_closet: Marvel and Disney have nothing to worry about. They have created a particular niche in the comic book movie genre, Joker is the polar opposite from this and tells a very different story. The MCU/Disney films are relying on wowing the audience with huge production values and set pieces which is much more appealing to the general novice cinema goer. DC has created, with “Joker” a completely different and much more niche film that will not shake up Marvel’s streak of hits …. Not at this stage!
@predictflicks: Ha! Hahahahahahahaha! HAhaHahahA!!! No.
@the_unpopular_film_critic: Marvel/Disney honestly should be concerned. DC and Warner Bros just made the best CBM of all time in my opinion and if they keep up this streak, they could easily take over the industry.
@aklo_movies: Not really but it does highlight something interesting. Marvel/Disney has put out way more good movies then WB/DC has, and that’s just a fact. Also, commercially they’ve absolutely flattened DC – did we forget Endgame made $2.8bn?!? However, critically, I think DC can have a seat at the table. Their best films are better than the MCU’s best films, it’s just they don’t make enough of them. Peak vs peak, I’ll take DC but based on the fact Disney has the best of both worlds in terms of critically and commercially, I’m sure Bob Iger won’t be losing much sleep over Joker’s success.
Is Joaquin Phoenix the best Joker we've ever had?
@predictflicks: Once Todd Phillips said what he said about him NOT being THE Joker, I actually liked the movie a tad bit more. He’s not the Joker, he sets him up. Now that, I find a bit more interesting and if it had been pitched that way from the beginning I would have had a very different opinion about it (maybe not about inspiring individuals for violence). It’s Heath, or Mark Hamill. Come on, it’s Heath. There’s not much good in The Dark Knight other than Heath (yeah, I said it, re-watch it and then figure it out and then fight me).
@the_unpopular_film_critic: Ok. If I’m being completely honest, there is no definitive answer to who has the best Joker. They are all different in their own ways and while I like more than others, I don’t think there’s a “best” one. But I did adore Phoenix’s portrayal.
@aklo_movies: To be fair, Joaquin isn’t really Joker until the last 20 minutes of the film, before then he’s Arthur. This is an origin story and we see how he became the Joker, not a Joker solo film. For me the debate is between Heath Ledger and Phoenix for their renditions of the Joker. It’s so hard to pick, these are two iconic performances and it’s just nuts that it’s for the same character. The former is very much a supporting character in TDK whilst the latter is in every single scene. Damn it, I’ll go Phoenix with his laugh and our ability to sympathise for him giving the edge over Ledger. Love you Heath.
@the_celluloid_closet: If we are looking at the “Joker” character and those that have played him over the years, Phoenix character is the most relatable and human of those interpretations. He has given us a version of the Joker that we have never seen before and will likely never seen again. The freedom to create rather than emulate previous comic and film interpretations has allowed Phoenix to give us the best version of the Joker we have ever seen. But not the most fun!
@reggiesroomblog: Too soon to say. I need to rewatch TDK but I think I still give a slight…ever so slight…edge to Heath Ledger. Ask me on another day and I might say Phoenix. His performance is unforgettable.
@thecinemagallery: I still prefer Heath Ledger but Joaquin is very close behind.
What was your favourite scene in the film?
@reggiesroomblog: The dancing scene in the bathroom. There is something cathartic about it. I see a man that has done something atrocious but it opens up another side of himself. The side that allows people to finally see him. If anyone has ever felt ignored or invisible, they will relate to that scene. I’m not condoning his actions, just the cathartic effect it had.
@the_celluloid_closet: My favourite scene is Joker is split between two. Joker on the Murray Franklin show, the menace and emotion that plays out in that scene is so compelling, the build up to Arthur making an example of those who have treated him as a joke instead of a person with obvious problems instead of respecting his aspirations is a moment so tense and ultimately shocking, and the scene where Arthur first steps out as the Joker dancing in the rain soaked steps, a truly Iconic image
@thecinemagallery: I have two really. The dancing down the stairs and Joker going on the Murray show.
@the_unpopular_film_critic: My favorite scene in Joker was the scene towards the end where he was standing in the crowd of people and fully became the Joker. This was one of the most memorable and powerful scene of the year and I loved it.
@predictflicks: I actually thought the most interesting was right after Joker first snaps on the subway scene and he heads to a public restroom in the rush of adrenaline. He gets in (and I really wonder if this is a thing) and starts to do what people have called his “dancing.” I actually think he’s doing some sort of mindfulness practice to calm himself down from the rush of just having killed a man. Now THAT, I found psychologically interesting. Disturbing, but quite interesting if that was what was thought out.
@aklo_movies: Hands down when Joker appears on the Murray Franklin show. I absolutely love this scene from beginning to end. From Joker waiting backstage seeing Murray mock him, to the flamboyant way he comes out, to the actual interview, right to him looking straight down the camera at the end – I can’t get enough of this scene. The tension was so high and it reached an almighty crescendo with this. This isn’t just one of the best scenes of the year, it might be one of the best scenes of the decade.
Apart from the acting and directing, what else did you like about this movie?
@predictflicks: This is basically the only thing I liked in this movie: the score. The sounds and score were SO good at helping evoke emotion whether it was dread, suspense, confidence, or disturbing joy. Such good use of music, and I think if you take that out you would immediately notice this movie’s flaws.
@thecinemagallery: The score was absolutely terrific. Needs to get more attention
@aklo_movies: The score and cinematography were integral to this movie and were very much like supporting characters in terms of their significance. But I’ll give a shout out to the unsung hero – the song choices. The soundtrack was wild. After seeing Joaquin Phoenix hip thrusting in his white underwear in the bathroom, I’ll never hear or think of Frank Sinatra’s That’s Life the same way ever again.
@reggiesroomblog: The risks that it takes. To achieve great cinema, you have to innovate and take huge risks.
@the_celluloid_closet: One thing about the film which I loved and that most have overlooked is the lighting and colour used in the film, even the vibrancy of the Arthur’s earlier clown costume is saturated, it’s a bleak and depressing palette that marries the tone of the film so beautifully!
@the_unpopular_film_critic: One underrated thing about this movie is the score by Hildur Guðnadóttir. It’s so chilling and really amazing and I love how it fits the story. The score starts off really quiet and slow paced but increases as the movie goes on, until it’s really grand, kinda like the character progression of Arthur.
Was all the hype and controversy justified?
@predictflicks: Both, yes. I’ll get up on my soapbox for #10, just you wait.
@the_celluloid_closet: The hype was justified but the controversy was not. I think the notion of this being a comic book movie was misplaced by the fact people expected something that was going to be suitable for a general audience like most comic book movies are nowadays. It depicts violence in a visceral and believable way that never overextends into the theatrical. Had the scenes of violence been a little more exaggerated and played with comic strip style juxtaposition it would have thrown the feel of the entire movie off. It was certainly a much better film that I expected it be as most films that are hyped up tend to be less than impressive, but Joker delivered on so many levels both artistically and technically. A masterpiece
@the_unpopular_film_critic: The hype leading up to this movie was insane. I was already hyped since the casting of Phoenix, but once overwhelmingly positive reviews hit, my hype went through the roof. And was it justified? Hell yes. But the controversy surrounding this movie was complete BS. I didn’t pay too much attention to it at first, but after I saw the movie and saw some of the controversy, I was confused, mostly because nothing in the movie matched it. Overall, the controversy wasn’t justified at all.
@aklo_movies: The hype certainly was, which I still can’t believe. Some of the early reviews I were seeing raised my expectation levels through the roof and somehow they were met. But, I still strongly believe the controversy was not. Films should not and cannot be blamed for any real life violence or inspiration. We should be allowed to watch violence in movies without getting too worked up and, hell, we should be able to enjoy it.
@reggiesroomblog: 100% justified.
@thecinemagallery: I see why there was controversy. I consider this to be a dangerous film, but with that being said there are movies out there that are much more disturbing & violent than Joker
Biggest gripe about the movie?
@thecinemagallery: My biggest gripe is that the movie ended.
@the_celluloid_closet: No gripes about the movie. It was well paced. It took it’s time telling a story. It was practically flawless. If I was to pick up on one thing it would of been the inclusion of Thomas Wayne and maybe further developing the animosity between Arthur and Wayne but it’s a very small improvement I would have made. Practically perfect
@predictflicks: Alright, here we go. Strap in and listen. A history lesson: back in 1980 a psychology researcher (David Phillips) decided to take a look at some very interesting data: highly publicized and detailed murder-suicides and plane crashes. You may think, plane crashes? Plane crashes. We’ll get to that. Phillips first identified and showed that suicidal behavior increases after highly publicized and meaningful stories of suicides. You can check me on that. Think of any major celebrity suicide EVER essentially, you’ll find an increase in suicidal behavior and actions after it, and not just from random fluctuations either. Phillips also found that fatal car accidents (especially single-car) accidents. He then showed that after publicized murder-suicide stories, PILOTS CRASHED THEIR F****** PLANES MORE (Phillips, 1980). Why for goodness sake do you think Veteran’s kill themselves disproportionately via suicide by police? Because those stories get a lot of attention, they highlight the personal characteristics of the individual, and then similar individuals think they can do the same thing. Now, most recently the world lost its mind because of 13 Reasons Why, and for darn good reason. They consulted with psychologists, even good ones at that, and then they ignored their consultation and then ACCORDING TO A COMPREHENSIVE NIH STUDY SUICIDAL BEHAVIORS INCREASED AFTER THE AIRING OF THE SHOW NOT JUST DUE TO RANDOM INCREASES. Now, take those same findings, apply them to what people are calling *a very meaningful and real depiction of mental illness that really gets at the emotions felt in that state* and then give someone with ideas of violence the perfect depiction and transition from non-violent to creepy and violent. If no increases in violence happen, and no creepy stalker-ish behavior towards women increase, I will be ecstatic. I might even go back on this and re-rate the movie. Till then, check the actual studies before you cry foul at the “woke left.”
@the_unpopular_film_critic: Honestly, the script here wasn’t all that revolutionary. But I could excuse it because literally everything else was perfect and overshadowed the script.
@aklo_movies: I didn’t feel the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne at the end felt quite right. The resentment towards Thomas Wayne was there, he had been a douche right to Arthur’s face and instead of showing him any compassion was straight up rude. Also, he was clearly a symbol of the class divide in Gotham and the people wanted to get back at him. But we didn’t need that in THIS film. Even though I don’t want a Joker sequel, it would have fit better there instead of feeling like an ‘oh we need to remind the audience about Batman in some way’ sort of gaff.
@reggiesroomblog: One thing and it is so frivolous. I didn’t like how they portrayed Alfred. Anyone grabs Alfred by the lapels…you know what should happen. You’re walking away with broken wrists. Other than that, no gripes. I loved it.